Data-Driven Marketing in Travel and Tourism, with Humphrey Ho

Episode 158

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As the U.S. managing director for China’s largest independent advertising agency, Humphrey Ho helps American brands reach their ever-growing base of Chinese consumers. Spearheading the opening of Hylink‘s American headquarters in Santa Monica, where he resides, Ho has scaled the operation up to 40 employees and secured the company’s key spots with industry leaders like Brand USA and Hawaiian Airlines. In September of 2018, Ho successfully launched Hylink’s subsidiary, Hylink Travel, a Shorty Awards-winning agency specializing in social and digital campaigns for travel brands. Mr. Ho has been featured in various publications, with recent examples like The Drum, Digiday, AdWeek, Buzzfeed, and Ad Age. Mr. Ho was named a finalist for Digidays 2019 Future Leader award and was also tapped by Forbes magazine as one of the top 8 Asian-Americans Shaping the Travel Industry. In this episode of Destination on the Left, Humphrey Ho is back to give us a detailed look at the data and tracking methods used to target the Chinese market. He explains data-driven marketing and how it differs in each segment of the travel and tourism industry. He describes the difference between branded and performance campaigns, and how to measure their effectiveness with new tools.

What You Will Learn in This Episode:

  • How different segments in travel and tourism look at data and rationalize their performance
  • How data-driven marketing is used with U.S. brands in the Chinese market
  • The new ways DMOs are accessing and leveraging data to reach Chinese travelers
  • Why DMOs are putting a lot more effort into brand love as they target China
  • The challenges DMOs face when targeting multi-cultural audiences
  • Hylink Radix and why you should be using it

Leveraging Data to Reach the Chinese Market

Back in episode #151, Humphrey Ho took us on a deep dive into the evolving Chinese travel market. He discussed the drastic shift in Chinese travel behavior, the opportunities amidst political turmoil between the U.S. and China, and the multi-destination collaborations that have successfully targeted the Chinese market. In this episode, Humphrey gives us a detailed look at the other side of the coin and explains data-driven marketing and how it differs by segment. He describes the difference between branded and performance campaigns, and how to measure their effectiveness.

Measuring Effectiveness in China

For DMOs, the user demographic is changing, and visibility is becoming more of a challenge in the Chinese market. When a DMO runs a campaign targeting Chinese travelers, it directly affects their partners too. As a result, DMOs are using data like traditional brand marketers to forecast all of the implications and the campaign’s overall effectiveness. DMOs have a responsibility to figure out what their brand means to the Chinese and it is more important than ever before to remain in-market. By accessing and leveraging data in new ways, DMOs are becoming more effective in doing so.

Nicole Mahoney: 00:22 Hi listeners, I’m excited to announce a virtual summit featuring fifth teen amazing speakers from this podcast that will be held on December 9th through the 11th the great thing about this summit is it’s free. There is no travel cost for you and you can do it from the comfort of your own office. Go to destination on the forward slash summit or taxed, D O T L [inaudible] six six eight six six for more details, this virtual summit [inaudible] is focused on proving value, relevancy, and ROI, a topic that impacts all of us. Again, check it forward slash summit or [inaudible], D O T L two six six eight six six for more details, this is Nicole Mahoney, host of destination on the left. I am passionate about travel and tourism and love learning from the experiences of professionals in the industry and that is why I’m so excited to welcome back today’s guest for an Encore episode with Humphrey. Whoa. Humphrey is the U S managing director for China’s largest independent advertising agency.

Nicole Mahoney: 01:30 Hi link. We first spoke with Humphrey last month on episode one 51 where we talked about the shift from predominantly group Chinese travelers to free independent travel. I’m pretty shared his perspective on the growing tensions between us and China and how he sees opportunity in the chaos. We talked about trans continental partnerships and Humphrey walked us through specific examples of multi destination collaborations that have successfully targeted and seen lift from the China market. If you missed one 51 I encourage listeners to go back and listen for a deep dive into the evolving Chinese travel market. Today I’m having Humphrey back on the show to provide a deep dive into data tracking and performance of campaigns in China. This can be challenging for most destinations, especially since a lot of China’s media outlets are behind firewalls that are not easily accessible. On this episode, Humphrey explains data driven marketing and how it differs by segment.

Nicole Mahoney: 02:27 He also talks about the difference between branded and performance campaigns and how to measure effectiveness. I’m excited to share this information packed conversation with you. So get your pencils ready. So Humphrey, thank you so much for coming back to the show with us today. We had such a great conversation with you and there’s so much to talk about when it comes to the China market. I know there’s a lot of questions, um, you know, in the minds of our listeners as to what they should be doing in terms of marketing to the Chinese. And uh, I wanted

Humphrey Ho: 02:59 to have you back because we did not get to touch on data and how data driven marketing can really work for [inaudible], uh, for tourism and then what you’re seeing in data driven marketing. So I’m wondering if you can just start by giving us a little bit oven overview on what types of data or how you consider and think about data driven marketing when you’re working for U S brands and the China market. Great. So thank you for having me back, Nicole and thank you to all the listeners for tuning in again, um, for another segment of uh, how to continuously adjust your China’s strategy given there is a constantly changing marketing background, especially in 2019 and 2020. So the way that we see it in terms of data, there is data by category. So every different market in travel tourism tends to look at the kinds of data that they want differently.

Humphrey Ho: 03:59 Example is Telia is airlines attractions, they and even global travel retail, they see, okay different data points is useful in rationalizing their performance. Um, there also is truly data by [inaudible], well we call data by segment, which is marketers are, we are observing rapidly shifting from short performance plays in China looking at branded data and how to measure their branded effectiveness in China. Therefore they need access to different kinds of data. And the third one is tracking the data is a different thing as well. A lot of marketers are seemingly very lost in the opaque world of China where they can visibly see their data in near real time. And that’s also something that they don’t have to worry about. Those solutions do exist in the market as well. Well, that’s how we see the use of data. Um, this is specifically because our industry lax access to first party data or not large top 10 advertisers.

Humphrey Ho: 04:58 And so we don’t have beautiful programmatic systems and very large PNPs and DSPs have first party data. We rely a lot on third party data. Um, therefore being able to understand and analyze that data is even more critical today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you just laid out, um, some really great points, which I know are, are gonna be [inaudible] make this an awesome conversation. So let’s kind of take these apart maybe a little bit one at a time and I kind of want to start with the first point that you made, which was how everyone looks at data differently. And kind of as a followup to that, you mentioned [inaudible] rationalizing their performance. Can you give us some examples and expand on that a little bit about how the different segments look at data and then kind of as a followup to that, can you expand on what you mean by rationalizing their performance?

Humphrey Ho: 05:50 Yes. [inaudible] let’s call it pre 2017 travel tourism marketing to China. A lot of what we could have done, a lot of marketers in different categories surely looked at performance in China and therefore we’re able to rationalize there careers rationalized there. Performance or sales driven approach to marketing, et cetera. So hotel [inaudible] and hotel groups, we’re looking at room nights, airlines, we’re looking purely at ’em seats filled or load factor, um, as a result of their marketing campaigns or even just relapse, which is return on ad spend attractions. We’re looking simply at the number of tickets sold, period. So actual people visiting, but the location or store or museum cultural institution, well, we’ll travel. Retail was purely looking at duty-free or in town store sales and, and they, they wrapped their entire marketing campaign around that. So, for example, um, we would look at hotel room nights, running campaigns on OTA sites and therefore getting a certain amount of room nights for a certain amount of dollar spent.

Humphrey Ho: 06:57 That was sort of the end of the day [inaudible] every large hotel group and independent hotel group with and in addition to the industry, airlines were the same thing. We’re very much concerned about really just on economy, premium economy business, but there really wasn’t much of a segmentation and it was just simply filling the plane, keeping the load factors up, especially both ways. And then everybody had a common concern. All of the industry had a common concern, which was social media. How do we it, you got the most number of fans for the lowest amount of cost, the WeChat way boat, how do we run really cool, exciting campaigns with people want to add us, which was follower base and then therefore how, and we grow that user segment and look at how big our fan pool is. And therefore that was the end of the day there. And that was 2017. However, as we move into 2018 and 19, we’ve actually seen some news, um, on, on major travel portals where eight the user target demographic is shifting in the U S not only are we experiencing stagnation of travel, it’s not a mile drop for 2019 at the end of the year.

Humphrey Ho: 08:02 We’re also probably going to see growth slow down in 2020 and beyond simply because of both zone one flight regulations in China, in the U S there are just so many planes in the air flying between both countries and to also because of impending political tensions. And so the graph, the demographic is drastically changing. These are people that went from group as a lot of the news will highlight suddenly it’s fit. These are semi fit is a free independent travelers, uh, luxury and adventure seekers, which I surmise will exceed the 14% that we, so on 2018 easily. Mmm. In 2018 19. And this group of users, even though they’re the same number of people traveling, relatively about 3 million people. [inaudible] need to be impressed upon to book something because besides running a performance campaign for a hotel on OTA, what is your represent Western and wellness. Everybody knows that even in China I am represents a good life, beautiful uh, properties, et cetera.

Humphrey Ho: 09:04 Marriott has a very truncated, very separated. They’ve got the autograph collection, luxury collection. That’s right. Of course. And in every airline really is a tube in the sky. How is your food, how was your experience before I get here? That was our service. And how has your hard product more competitive, two domestic Chinese carriers who have been playing that up for for many, many years. There is a difference flying air China versus flying China Southern versus flying high. Not there is a clear differentiator in what they position themselves. And I think, you know, for example, airlines [inaudible] branding, it’s a little bit unclear. In China attractions they’ve recently moved into more um, sort of, I would call them motivation or I would call it a sort of impression based. Um, so when you come you come kind of thing. Movement the met is a very good example that I’ll highlight.

Humphrey Ho: 09:59 So given that in a, in 100% of all the people in China, a very, very small sub segment will actually visit the met the men, the British museum, SF MoMA, they’re now actually selling their products, which is inline with their open access museum initiatives all over the globe. They’re allowing there exhibitions, both temporary and permanent, the IP, the intellectual property of that to be used on basically a virtual museum store, [inaudible] chemo. So suddenly museums have gone from how many tickets sales, how many auto audio guides, how many flip flops on China do we get, do not only just that, okay, Hey, we actually also have to sell stuff on Teema because that isn’t impression or a okay impact on that user because they want highlight and show something off to their friends. Even if it is a laptop case. Uh, in China as a measurement of brand love, we’re also seeing global travel retail go from the world of surely duty free and purely in store sales numbers. Now to working with data in the world of geo fencing. They actually want to study travel patterns of both domestic Chinese. So those of those of us that have settled in the United States for a few years, but they still behave from a media standpoint, like a Chinese person, they travel a lot back home. They still use the chat Weibo. They made book part of their lives on Ctrip. [inaudible] [inaudible]

Humphrey Ho: 11:31 I have not fully immersed in Western media all the way through to the actual traveling demographic that’s going through their, their date. And so that kind of data pool is very different. It’s talking about lbs data, looking into how to geo-fence on Chinese platforms and how to mesh all of that data visibly into platform that you can view. So it is the way you approach data has drastically changed if you’re a hotel and airline attraction, um, or, or travel retail.

Nicole Mahoney: 12:04 Yeah, I can, uh, certainly I certainly hear that. And uh, and what you just described, and one of the things that I’m thinking about, um, you didn’t mention how you’re seeing GMOs, um, measure. And maybe if you could explain if you’ve seen destinations in particular, have they changed, uh, their performance measures as well?

Humphrey Ho: 12:26 Let’s, thank you for reminding me of the DMO space. I can’t forget my clients there.

Nicole Mahoney: 12:32 [inaudible]

Humphrey Ho: 12:32 well, they’re struggling with two sets of data. The first one is their user demographic is changing. That’s easy. It’s how old, how young, which cities are coming from their flight patterns. Are they, like we talked about last time, are they trans Connie? Are they traveling on the front of the plane or the middle of the plane instead of everywhere? All over the plane. That’s the first set of data, but it’s relatively easy to grasp. It’s merely just changing demographics. They do that globally. Yeah. The second set of data that they’re grasping. However, with the challenge of data that they have now, [inaudible] visibility because if you’re partners as a DMO, your partners are hotels are airlines are attractions. Some of them are, they have to report to the city. Some of them are tied to duty free and also tied to the airports, et cetera. They’re now having to justify, for example, the doubling of cost.

Humphrey Ho: 13:23 A WeChat fan has doubled since 2015 the cost of acquisition of a WeChat fan, it’s doubled. Why are we still spending money on social media, for example? They’re having trouble justifying that they need to have a social presence. That’s pretty normal, but the clients now have to go from surely just fan acquisition campaigns to actually creating some, well we call $0 million campaigns, so pure creative backed by very little media and it’s supposed to generate brand love and so that’s a very different way of approaching data because previously if you did your targeting for your advertising correctly, you acquired so many fans that efficiency is getting lower. That’s a sort of a challenge. Second part of that data is reporting out that data and so if you’re a partner, for example, let’s use a very practical example. Almost every DMO that we know of as a hotel partner, the hotel partner suddenly used to go to the, used to go to them three 2017 great, you know what?

Humphrey Ho: 14:14 We want more room nights. We’re going to collaborate and go off on a campaign with you and get us some roommates. It could have also been, Hey, let’s collaborate with you and co-op with you on a social media campaign. Or the third one may have been, Hey, you know what city through your marketing efforts, we want to keep our ADR steady because previously we had some situations before 2017 in order to juice the numbers of people coming into the city. A lot of campaigns are being run simply based on discount and you can’t far with that.

Humphrey Ho: 14:44 Now the are being approached with challenges of well we want to run a brand campaign. How do we measure mr DMO? Um, how do we measure your TV commercial, your PBC or your online TV commercial? And how do we measure campaigns where we collaborate with you creating true brand lift for our properties or even for airlines. And so you’re seeing deemos shift, not only there media mix, we’re now seeing DMS create TV commercials. San Diego has one in market and China for example, specifically for the Chinese market. The first time they’ve done it, San Francisco has gone to use, um, you’re going to use muffin wall. MFW they’ve used a KOL push where they have key opinion leaders. They come to the city and they go to parts unknown if you will, to highlight things you can see. And then articles are created. So users go deeper into the city and stay longer.

Humphrey Ho: 15:34 And then we also have, well we also then have their partners come back and say, how do we justify that as brand reach? Because now they’re trying to leverage DMO collaboration’s at DMO dollars to actually do brand awareness. So they’re, they’re more focused on not only the booking, they’re also concerned about how do our organic search results increase? Does our branding compared to our competitors stay positive after we won the campaign with you? And so DMS have had to adjust the way they think of data. Um, not unlike how I’m traditional brand marketers are looking. Yeah, I think, I think that’s a great point. And I’m curious, as you were talking, one of the things I start to think about is, um, you know, with these different goals and these different data points that each of these segments have, do you think that there is a greater or a need for the DMO too?

Humphrey Ho: 16:28 Mmm. Focus on that brand message where perhaps if I’m an attraction or I’m an airline or the hotel partner for example, you know, I need to put my money more into what’s going to get that overnights or the room nights versus trying to do a brand love campaign. Are you seeing that? Am I, am I following you? Yeah. So I think the first step, the crawling step before one walk, get the performance campaigns, right? Some demos already well ahead of that. They spent many years in market to understand their performance mix. So you still have to get the room. That’s it. You still have to protect that ADR. You still have to watch when your soft spots are, your shoulders are, avoid the peaks. Even though it might coincide with that Chinese traveling season, you simply don’t need more tourists in the city. Right. It’s cause of roommates.

Humphrey Ho: 17:16 Mmm. That’s still something you have to do. Okay. Many deemos now [inaudible] I know, it’s very tough. I’m witnessing this of course firsthand. A lot of DMS have just taken many long time to get social media, let alone do the performance campaigns are barely starting finding them and I’m, we’re telling them already now, Hey listen, brand love is even more important. So think about the other chores for a minute. Step back, Australians and uh, new Zealanders, they come to the West coast. I think the average number of visits to any city in California is three or four times. They will Australia been here, done that. And so in order to retarget them to come back, it’s not performance anymore. Yes, there will be people that have to be price sensitive. Most likely. It’s what can I do this time? I go to California or this time, what can I do when I go visit San Francisco?

Humphrey Ho: 18:06 Or how is San Diego a city that their cities don’t change that fast every year? How is it different this time? And so messages have to change and therefore it targets different demographics. And dos really have to adjust to California I think does a pretty good job. They’re now targeting children with um, Chitta fornia. So they’re targeting young families. They’re targeting, uh, people with, with kids, essentially grandparents with kids on after children in China who come here. That’s a really smart idea. Three years ago their campaign was much more focused on Mmm. Different user demographics, like couples, Leon family Roadtrippers they were married more theme-based the MOS really do have to pick a theme. They have to first identify the brand advantage that they have and look at their competitive set about how my brand is different. How is San Francisco different then New York, there are significant differences as to why the, the user comes once you build brand love and you have to build brand love now and that’s going to be through different channels.

Humphrey Ho: 19:04 So [inaudible] look, we have to pick up creating just like they do for Western and domestic markets. They have to create a Chinese specific online TV campaign. Instead of a TV campaign. They create an online TV. They have to create, Mmm. An influencer or even a celebrity spokesperson campaign. Because they now need that to generate brand awareness. And thirdly, simply put, their partners are starting to demand that hotels in the local area, in the state level as well as the city level or airlines or attraction or private partnerships. They’re demanding that they see not only their own products, but the campaign itself generate increased brand awareness, which usually is rationalized through search traffic. So persistently higher search traffic. It’s rationalized through, uh, TV views or ad views throughout the period of time, both during and after the paid campaign. M good. More importantly, it’s the number of articles being written in the commentary and also what they see when the user comes in books.

Humphrey Ho: 20:10 And so GMOs have had a very tough time over the last 12 months trying to not only navigate the political situation was they have to send out different messaging, define what their brand means to the Chinese. Um, given that many of them, when they look deep down, feel like they don’t have a unique advantage to the Chinese traveler. Okay. They actually do. Yeah, absolutely. As you were talking again, I was thinking about, I mean we’ve, you’ve mentioned it a few times about the, you know, the uncertainty in the market, the changing and the China market. How probably more important to this than ever before to remain in market. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yeah. The Chinese traveler is not going to be suddenly spending less if I were to predict the market because we see things, the reason why the CP, the CPA and CPEs have cost per acquisition and the cost per engagement of a WeChat fan has doubled over the last two years.

Humphrey Ho: 21:09 Is it because the platforms are jacking the price? It’s because the users that are coming here that will likely follow us are becoming more premium. These are tier two and tier one city users that fly business and premium economy. We’re seeing that in the West coast and the East coast major gateway cities are seeing that front of the plane load factors are far higher and therefore those people are likely to stay longer. They’re like this been higher ADR and the hotels, like they don’t want more for their experiences besides just simply shopping. Let’s be honest, the U S has never been a competitive destination in terms of shopping because we don’t give tax back and we’re not exactly known for too many luxury brands. So we’re seeing a lot of, um, shift in the user. I would hazard the dollars spent per person per visit average will continuously increase even though the number of people may net net look like it’s experiencing a single point, the client.

Humphrey Ho: 22:05 So how do we adjust to that? Cause actually it’s good for the tax base. It’s good for the, the that’s good for the tourist taxes. It’s great for uh, the hotel liaise is great for the airlines. It’s great for our, our attractions. It’s great for our partners. How do we capture that? The second thing that the Chinese are doing more is there just behaving like us. They book the first two or three days when they need to come to the U S they leave the rest of their, you know, 16 day average. [inaudible] they, they, they go as they please because there are now what we call TTDs. So things to do, activities, they’re doubling every year since 2015 from a very small zero point something percentage point. We’ve seen certain cities experience things to do close to the 2% point now in terms of total transaction volume of spend of that Chinese tourists within that specific city.

Humphrey Ho: 22:57 So how are we attracting people just itching to do stuff when they show up in the city and how are we targeting them across different platforms like those that our payment platform or OTA is, which they have stolen their hand or on social and how are we recommending them to be aware of these things when they arrive. And so those are very, very important aspects. And lastly, um, with the Chinese traveler [inaudible] I would argue this, I recently came back from a trip with, um, some folks and we met with a lot of airlines and airports and hotels and travel, tourism city officials. I was sort of a two city meeting. Grief you, um, the, the, the [inaudible] the conversation from the Chinese side was essentially this, we’ve been friends for 200 years. Many of the cities that we went with actually have had diplomatic city level diplomatic relations for 40, 30, 20 years is the beginning of China’s opening.

Humphrey Ho: 23:55 It’s going to happen. It’s bound to happen. [inaudible] business people, let’s sit down and look at what the opportunities are, wants this answer. And so actually if we take that kind of attitude, for those of them that visit the country, we follow those that visit the country frequently absorb that attitude. BMO should not shy away from, Mmm, I’m the Chinese traveler. But perhaps in the meantime, a short term strategy to keep things up and up will be the target multicultural. So targeting Asian Americans targeting Chinese Americans because the creative that is being used [inaudible] is the same. The media channels are different. They’re Western, but they’re very familiar too. The domestic marketing team within the DNR.

Nicole Mahoney: 24:41 Sure, absolutely. And are you seeing, uh, some, the MOS changed their focus to the Asian Americans or Chinese Americans? And, and also what are some of the kind of, um, roadblocks that, that they might experience if they’ve,

Humphrey Ho: 24:56 when they focus there? Yeah, so we’re not actually seeing active campaigns to target Chinese Americans or Asian Americans in general beyond what they’ve, from an organic marketing standpoint, for multicultural marketing as they use the Spanish market, et cetera. We don’t see that increasing drastically suddenly or being a priority. There are two reasons why. Number one, the Asian American demographic, especially Chinese Americans, those that have been here in country for more than the last 10 years, so mainland Chinese immigrants, if you will, their spending power actually is strong as a collective whole, but they may be more deal seeking than even the average, what we would call consumer, who looked at the average number of what the domestic American tourist pays in their city. It would actually be lower. And so therefore you’re not seeing the economic benefit that you would want from the targeting. That’s okay. The first challenge, the second one is the language disparity.

Humphrey Ho: 25:53 Right? Targeting multicultural and currently has its pitfalls. There are approximately 7 million Chinese that declare that they speak a language and dialect of Chinese. There’s two really better major mainstream in the U S there’s [inaudible] traditional Chinese that’s typically spoken in Cantonese or Mandarin. And then there’s also simplified Chinese. So therefore you have to develop two sets of creative, just target a relatively small traveling demographic. Not to mention if you still want to target newer immigrant classes like Ty Indonesian, Filipino, you’re going to have to run different, very small campaigns that might be more costs than simply just increasing your domestic campaigns, typically in English to target them.

Nicole Mahoney: 26:37 Yeah. So do, do you think that some of those Chinese Americans or Asian Americans, um,

Humphrey Ho: 26:43 do you think that some of these CMOs might still pick them up with their traditional China marketing

Humphrey Ho: 26:49 tactics? For example, we chat. Yeah. These folks still engaged in re we chat still following maybe some of the no Chinese media channels that they’re accustomed to. Yeah. So we don’t want to study an understanding of the Chinese, what we call the LTT, the long term temporary user, including new immigrants, students who are on an extended study visa or those that have achieved a H1B or a work visa. So those that have been here in the United States physically for three years or less, their media consumption patterns are very Chinese. They still consume them. Sina Weibo, WeChat essentially staying connected to the whole, after about the third year, they start to drop offs very suddenly they consume suddenly just like everybody else. So on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, et cetera. Um, so you sort of start losing them. No GMOs. I would say this, if you are an arrow, if you’re a corporate or private corporation, like an airline, a hotel chain, a local hotel group, um, or if you’re travel retail, I think it’s worthwhile tracking and targeting them, the longterm temporary user.

Humphrey Ho: 27:57 However, as a DMO, because strategies don’t just come from China, you don’t just target the Chinese. You’ve got some DMS do 60 70 markets at the same time with the same set of people. I think by the time we react to this, the trend may be over. Yeah, absolutely. So earlier you mentioned, um, the ability to find or track the data and we’ve talked about all different types of data. Can you talk a little bit about how, Mmm. Any one of these segments, whether I’m up a hotel, you’re an attraction, a DMO, where I might access some of this data. Yeah. So [inaudible] as, uh, the old ways of how a DMO would access data is they would obtain the login and password of where we chat or way Ctrip, admin interface, MSW login there. Mmm. Some of their, if they do programmatic, their programmatic ad accounts and they would attempt to piece that all together.

Humphrey Ho: 28:57 Now a, those platforms are all in Chinese. So first of all, that narrows the number of DMS. I can do that natively. And secondly, it really is time consuming. Yeah. Deemos are not media agencies. And so the only other way to track that now and there’s so DMO started running campaigns using certain platforms that were available in China, uh, posting for example, but that still didn’t allow them to see their performance. The only real solution that exists, and I’m sorry for the timeshare to all of our users, um, is that Highland has developed something called Highland Predix, R a. D. I X I think great actually has all of the API APIs to all of the OTA, all of the social media platforms and all of the media outlets by media four, all of our clients and travel tourism. Is it a one stop visualized database?

Humphrey Ho: 29:52 You can see your fan growth for both [inaudible] you can see your OTA campaign performance based on basically ADR or [inaudible] or sales. You can see your best post performances, you can see your worst post performances. You can see how you’re touching your KPI because you can set your own KPIs. I, it’s really a holistic interface that allows you to see all that data and also generate a report. Cause sometimes you’re just walking into the room of the CFO or the board push download. You could get a snapshot of your existing data with China. And so right now the only tool that exists in all of the world for travel tourism, BMO is really is the one solution we’re offering. And a lot of our DMO clients are already using it. Actually all of our DMO clients are using it. Is that a tool that’s only available to your clients or is that a product that can be bought?

Humphrey Ho: 30:45 Mmm, it’s like a software as a service. Well that’s a very good question. For the last year, this tool is offered only to our clients. They joined us in what we call open beta. Uh, we’ve been testing the solution. Okay. In this quarter, in the fourth quarter of the year, Jasmine, our RPR specialist and our team, we’ll be launching that tool for subscription, um, again, only for travel tourism clients to subscribe to for a paper pay for play option. That, that uh, that sounds like a wonderful tool and I know yeah just with domestic campaigns or [inaudible] you know, with campaigns that happen maybe where there’s a little bit more access, we struggle with having that one stop shop and that dashboard and you put those firewalls on when it comes to China and it becomes even more complex and difficult. So, um, I’m sure that’s, that’s going to be a great product and a we’ll make sure we will link to that in our show notes so any of our listeners can find that and check it out for sure.

Humphrey Ho: 31:46 Okay. So Humphrey, this has been a great conversation. Again as a, as I knew it would be, um, before we though, um, come to a close, I did want to add back up cause I had written down a note to myself and then I forgot to ask you about it. We’ve talked a lot about brand love and brand lift and I’m curious how you are measuring brand lift for your clients within the China market. Yup. So brand lift is measured one of two ways. The way that it is measured is a combination of increased social media traffic and mentions. So we trial not only the common ones we tried to label but we call [inaudible] a place called [inaudible], which is the core of China that people ask for a lot of advice. We also troll a variety of other forums people use or websites like MFW for example, based on the amount of [inaudible] you mentioned that they have and so we’re able to actually see mentioned increase and we’re able to slice that into the sentiment analysis.

Humphrey Ho: 32:49 Positive, negative, neutral. That’s the first way of understanding brand lift. Second we have understanding brand lift is a search traffic, so we constantly monitor search traffic of keywords that our our, our DMO partner is going to be mentioned in. And we notice whether or not we’ll look at whether or not there’s been brand lift from a search engine perspective, which is the most powerful way. And there are several search bars, right? There’s Baidu search bar, but there’s also a search bars within the OTA AIDS and that really informs us whether or not people are looking to travel there. They may not book, but that search bar is very powerful. It’s not unlike the Amazon search bar. Spent a lot of time analyzing that for econ. So that would be the equivalent and some demos are still choosing to and we encourage them to run focus groups in China. The see is active super active travelers or travel elites. They have a increased or more positive or deeper understanding of yeah, the destination after a campaign is run.

Nicole Mahoney: 33:48 Those are fantastic resources and great ways to uh, to measure that and I appreciate you walking us through that. Uh, Humphrey, are there any final words that you would like to share with our listeners before we, we say goodbye for today?

Humphrey Ho: 34:05 No, I want to thank everybody for their time. [inaudible] interviewing me again, the coal and I’m always excited to share any questions that any of your listeners might have. How to market effectively in China.

Nicole Mahoney: 34:18 Absolutely. And I’m sure there will be questions. I’m, I’m excited for this episode to publish. So, um, we will, uh, try to get this one out as soon as we can, and, uh, Humphrey, we’ll definitely stay connected and hopefully gets young again. Thank you so much.

Humphrey Ho: 34:33 Thank you.

Speaker 1: 34:34 It’s time to hit the road again. Visit destination on the during your travels for more podcasts, show notes and fresh ideas.

Speaker 4: 35:20 [inaudible].

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